'Not my problem if you don't like me'

KUALA LUMPUR: Tan Sri Azam Baki, who is due to retire this year and has been reappointed as Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC) chief commissioner for one year with effect from tomorrow, said graft-busters have been relentless in the fight against corruption.

 

However, despite all the effort, he said much needed to be done as corruption in Malaysia had become systemic, with all levels of society infected by it.

 

Azam speaks about the challenges faced by the MACC and efforts taken to fight graft in an exclusive sit-down with the New Straits Times.

 

Question: Enforcement agencies and the public sector always top the charts in terms of corruption cases. When is this going to change?

Answer: Corruption in this country is becoming systemic in certain areas, especially among enforcement agencies and those involved in procurement processes.

 

Ten years ago, we rarely got anyone from Grade 54 arrested for graft, but it has now become common. Even those with Jusa C and B grades (Jusa is the highest level in public bureaucracy) are involved. Something is wrong somewhere.

 

That is why instead of going for quantity, or focusing on the small fry, we now focus on public interest cases. Our mission is to reduce leakages. It is said that two to four per cent of a nation's gross domestic product could be lost to corruption.

 

This totals up to RM30 billion to RM40 billion per year. If we can save at least RM10 billion, that's enough. You can even use the money to pay bonuses to the people.

 

Q: What new trends do you see when it comes to the fight against graft?

 

A: We are seeing an increasing number of women being involved in corruption. In 2019, only nine women were convicted for corruption-related crimes, but this jumped to 57 last year. This shows that women, too, are susceptible to corruption. When there is an opportunity for corruption, both genders will take advantage to enrich themselves.

 

Q: How can this be changed?

A: The MACC, through its academy, the Malaysia Anti-Corruption Academy, and Centre of Integrity Development Corporate, have trained 1,784 chief integrity officers (CeIOs), whose roles are to plan, implement and monitor the effectiveness of integrity programmes in government agencies and ministries, as well as in government-linked companies and the private sector.

 

CeIOs act as agents of change and experts whom integrity-related subjects are referred to in organisations.

 

A reward system to promote whistle-blowers among public servants is also important to stamp out corruption. This year, we have awarded RM192,107 to 40 public servants for providing information that led to the conviction of corrupt individuals.

 

Transparency in open tenders in government procurements is also essential to prevent corruption and abuse of power. This, too, is being implemented by the government to root out favouritism and conflict of interest.

 

Q: What are the MACC's current missions?

A: Besides reducing leakages, the MACC will go hard on cartels and syndicates. So we will go after their insiders in government agencies that allow them to operate. Our focus has also shifted to enforcement authorities, which are susceptible to corruption. Apart from making arrests, the MACC will also focus on seizing and recovering ill-gotten gains from criminals.

Finally, prevention efforts and education are just as important. Without prevention and education, we will be fighting a never-ending war. Our prevention work will include penalising the top management for not complying with the MACC's recommendations to deter corruption.

The MACC has been working with the Education and Higher Education Ministries to include anti-corruption and integrity values in the curriculum.

Q: Any updates on the recovery of funds stolen from 1Malaysia Development Bhd?

A: The recovery is ongoing. We still have much to recover worldwide, especially in Switzerland. We have retrieved about RM29 billion, but we are in a deficit of about 30 per cent (from a total of RM42 billion).

Q: Has investigations into the Jana Wibawa scandal concluded with the four cases levelled?

A: For me, it's done. We have charged them. If there is anything else, then it is for the Finance Ministry to look into.

Q: Do you think we should accept a settlement from fugitive Low Taek Jho @ Jho Low?

A: The attorney-general previously rejected his offer. I too disagree (with the settlement). I think the damage he has done to this country is too much.

Q: Any updates on the hunt for Jho Low?

A: We are still looking for him. We don't know his whereabouts. He has also probably changed his looks.

Q: How do you feel about Datuk Seri Najib Razak's pardon campaign?

A: It is the prerogative of the king to decide on his pardon, so I cannot comment much on it.

Q: The MACC has turned a few suspects into witnesses. Datin Seri Rosmah Mansor's aide, Datuk Rizal Mansor, who was investigated for receiving bribes on behalf of Rosmah in the solar hybrid project, is one of the examples. Is it a fair deal and will the suspects get to keep their ill-gotten gains?

A: The public prosecutor has the constitutional right to charge or not charge an accused. He has the prerogative to withdraw charges against an accused, so that they can be used as a witness to strengthen the case.

I was a prosecutor for 12 years, and as a prosecutor, you would appreciate the move to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt and secure a conviction.

In other countries, like the United States and the United Kingdom, the deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) is used to negotiate a settlement instead of prosecuting the accused party in court. There are many big cases that used the DPA, like the Boeing and the Airbus France scandals.

We are also venturing into this area by looking at our corporate liability law. But at the moment, we have provisions under the MACC Act and the Anti-Money Laundering Act to forfeit illegal proceeds and recover them by legal means, as well as to mete out punishments by way of compounds.

Q: What is stopping the MACC from compelling those living beyond their means to prove that their income matches their lifestyle?A: Nothing is stopping us from checking anybody's account so long as there is reasonable suspicion for us to investigate them. I do not wish to perform random checks, like how the Inland Revenue Board (IRB) will serve taxpayers with a notice to verify their tax filing. We will have our hands full with such cases if we do that. So, we use only provisions like Section 36 of the MACC Act in our investigation into corruption cases.

We will conduct a forensic analysis, compare the person's income and spending, and this section will compel them to declare their income.

"If the person fails to provide a justifiable explanation then they could be slapped with charges. I give my word that I will investigate anyone, even a minister, if there is reasonable suspicion.

Q: Can we have an update on the investigation into former finance minister Tun Dr Daim Zainuddin and the others named in the Pandora Papers?

A: There are so many people mentioned in the Pandora Papers, but we will focus on politically exposed persons. It is ongoing.

We will investigate those who have committed offences against the law, especially those who held power during that time, and will suggest to the public prosecutor on charges. There are other agencies conducting investigations as well, such as the police, IRB and Bank Negara.

Q: In the prosecution of former Perlis menteri besar Datuk Seri Azlan Man, the offences were committed between 2013 and 2018, but the probe began only six years later. Why?

A: We found out about the offences only recently following a tip-off. Upon investigation, we discovered that more than RM1 million had been siphoned off through false claims.

Investigation into the matter was carried out under Section 18 of the MACC Act. This is a very important section because many people, for example, contractors, attempted to make false claims so that they can swindle money. So they will alter the auditing (reports) and other documentation.

Q: You have been attacked left, right and centre by various parties.

A: I am okay with it. I think there are those who don't like me or they want me out of the system. You don't like me, it's not my problem. Additional reporting by Amalina Kamal

 

Source: NST